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Post by senseialex on Dec 19, 2011 16:43:20 GMT
Some time ago I was talking to a Korean man about TKD who had dan (4 or 5) in ITF TKD, I forget his rank, or even what the subject was, it's not important for the discussion. Anyway, I used a Korean word I learned from my instructor, (both American) and he had NO idea of what I was saying. When I finally was able to get my meaning across, he said "Oh, you mean 'x'", (let me add that this gentleman WAS fluent in English), and he repeated the word I had said. When I said "That's what I said". He very politely said "No it isn't". We both had a chuckle and let it go, and continued our TKD discussion. But truly, I did not hear a difference between the two words. Now I'm not suggesting the man was lying, quite the opposite. I'm saying without a solid background in the Korean language, non Koreans due it a disservice.
Put another way, I have come to this position: Traditionally, they spoke their mother tongue, they did NOT speak a foreign language badly.
These days, I mostly only use English when I teach. Once and a while a "Korean" word will slip in. But I guard against it.
Any thoughts on this???
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joe
White Belt
Posts: 8
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Post by joe on Jan 9, 2012 20:30:50 GMT
Hi Alex,
I'm learning Korean so maybe i could give you some thoughts about what i discovered on this language.
First, the vowels are quite different from what you find in english. My mother tongue is french and it's fortunately closer to Korean. Exemple: Taekwon-Do; Americans will usually pronounce "Thai"kwon-Do while the real pronunciation is more like Tekwon-Do, french "è". There's also a vowel named "eu" that comes from the troat and is really difficult to make.
Second, the consonnants are VERY different from any western language. Exemple; L-stance is nieunja-sogi. Actualy "nieun" is how you pronounce the consonnent written almost like an "L". So how the hangueul works (korean alphabet) is that when a syllable start with "L", you use the starting sound of the consonnant, so "n" sound and when it ends a syllable, you used the ending sound of the consonnant; "nieun" finnish with a "n" sound. Maybe it sound complicated but i will give you a second exemple. The D consonnent in "Do" is pronounce "Diggeut", so when it starts a syllable you use D sound and when it finnish a syllable you use a "G" sound.
Third, it's hard to hear the difference between L, R, and D, T and K, G sounds as they are not formed the same way in the mouth. Actually, hangueul is so cool that the symbol of consonnents represent the form of the tongue in the mouth !!
Once you learn hangueul, it's much easier as the written language tells you how to pronnunce the word which is not the case in english of french. Hangueul can takes 3 hours to master for a smart person and maximum a week for a normal person. It's very easy! Even the UN officially recommend Hangueul to nations who dont have their own alphabets. Some old scholars in Choson period of Korea refused to use it because it was too simple compare to original chinease symbols. They called it a "women" alphabet.
Finally, there are many, MANY ways that are used to translate words pronunciation in the roman alpahabet (i.e. english ,french) and none is really precise so that cause lot of confusion. i.e. gunnun sogi is actually pronunce gutnun sogi even though it's not written like this (because they couldnt translate the double consonnent i guess).
The best is still to learn hangueul.
Joe
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Post by oerjan on Jan 13, 2012 7:36:40 GMT
I have also studied the Korean language and spent one year studying Korean culture, language and Taekwondo in Korea. I too feel that learning the writing system of Korean (Hangul) helps imensly if you are using Korean words and phrases in your training.
I have always studied under a Korean master so he naturally uses some Korean in training. All our techniques are said in Korean, but explanations are done in Norwegian (or English if there are foreign students present). Other than the techniques we have a few phrases like "turn", "salute the flag" etc that we use.
The reason I am mentioning this is that when I first travelled to Korea I did not speak any Korean except "Taekwondo-Korean". But my Taekwondo-Korean was at a decent level since I hear it spoken out loud from my Korean master. This helped me in my university Taekwondo classes all the time. The teachers there did not alway use long explanations or anything mostly they said what we needed to do, and I could follow because we used Korean in our training in Norway as well.
Then the university got a visit from another foreign student. He was a 5th Dan so he outranked most of the Korean students in the class. He could not follow the class at all always looking like a question mark. He did not understand a word that the teacher said (the teacher did not speak any English). It turned out that the foreign student only learned Taekwondo in English without any Korean in it, and he did not understand why anyone practising Taekwondo outside Korea would use any Korean words in their training.
He was baffled that me and a friend (both from Norway) could follow the classes so easily since we were both foreigners. I explained that we used Korean in our training in Norway as well and that had helped us a great deal during our stay. He still did not understand why we did not teach in our native tounge when in Norway and I said that we "teach" in our native tounge (all explanations are in Norwegian) but all the techniques names and a few commands are in Korean.
What I am trying to say is that combining the two languages (your students native tounge and Korean) is good for people who wants to go outside the comfort of your own dojang and practise anywhere else. English is a world language but for most high ranking Korean grandmasters English is not spoken at all in training. They do not speak English. I can travel to Korea to practise and follow the class at a decent level, but I can also go to USA or England and practise because I speak English too (somewhat anyway:-p ).
One of my senior students travelled to Tunisia to practise and she was pleasently suprised that they too used Korean in their training so she could follow the class really well:-) She had been nervous as she did not speak their native language.
That being said as the opening post implies traditionally the students of Taekwondo spoke Korean as their native language and ALL training was done in said language. Today if they practise martial arts from foreign countries they have their own Korean names for them and all training is conducted in Korean.
For instance a Karate student in Norway would learn a little Japanese and call his art Karate not "tom hånd". In Korea they would not practise "karate" they would practise Kongsudo and they would only speak Korean. In Norway a student of Wushu/Chuan Fa or Kung Fu would call his art by said names and learn a little Chinese. In Korea they would call the art Kwon Bup and speak Korean during class.
This gives Korean students an advantage in cross training that other countries does not share. Could you imagine a Norwegian teen learning a little Japanese, Korea and Chinese if he wanted to practise Karate, Taekwondo and Chuan Fa? Would it not be easier for him to practise in just Norwegian? I guess there are two sides of the same coin here, and that it has its pros and cons when it comes to practise with foreign language versus native language. I still personally think that delving a little in Korean for instructors and senior students of Taekwondo is good for the aforementioned reasons.
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ky0sa
White Belt
Posts: 29
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Post by ky0sa on Jan 24, 2012 2:16:28 GMT
I too found I was able to communicate fine in Korea, with 'Konglish' - a combination of my TK-D Korean, and my hosts' schoolbook English. Also some names in English don't make sense or are easily confused with other techniques. Eg. reverse hooking kick is NOT the reverse of a hooking kick. The Korean name is much clearer: reverse-turning-hooking-kick. Same for midair kick and midair strike: in Korean the name means spinning, which tells you better how to do the technique.
As for pronunciation problems check the web for audio, and ask Koreans. It's a fantastic way to start a conversation, to ask someone about their language.
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Master Gary B Douglass
Guest
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Post by Master Gary B Douglass on May 5, 2012 17:25:25 GMT
I still use the old style Korean that was taught to me back in the late 60's and 70's; Ie. {Chongul}, Ahp- Forward/Gunnun- Walking; {Hugul}–Back/Niunja- L; {Kima}- Horseback/Annun- Sitting; {Sang Dan} - High/Nopunde - High; {Chun Dan} - Middle/Kaunde - Middle; {Ha Dan} - Low/Najunde - Low. We all use the common terminology for respect and events Ie. {Cha Ryut- Attention, Chun Bee- Ready, Ba Ro- Return to Ready, Ahn Jo- Sit, Ki Hap- Yell, Kyung Yet- Bow, To Ra- Turn; I have been speaking the old way so long it is hard to quit so now teach both ways but use the old way most of the time...(tristatetaekwondo.com)
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Post by oerjan on Jun 25, 2012 7:59:24 GMT
Hi Kyosa. Just curious about how your students cope being taught in both modern korean terminology and old terminology as you write that you teach using both (allthough the older more often than the new)?
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